TWIO-03: Can Google be trusted to police itself?

This is the third episode of our brand new weekly show, ‘This Week In Organic’, the weekly show that debates the ramifications of the latest SEO and content marketing news.

In this episode, among other things we talk about whether Google can be trusted to police itself and the impact of Dick Costolo quitting as Twitter CEO. Our host, David Bain is joined by Ann Smarty from MyBlogU, Chris Sanfilippo from Rankko, Jeff Sauer from Jeffalytics and Lukasz Zelezny from uSwitch.

Sign up to watch the next show live over at and share your thoughts on what’s discussed using the hashtag #TWIO on Twitter.


DAVID BAIN: Can Google be trusted to police itself? Dick Costolo quits as Twitter CEO. And what really happened to the dinosaurs? All that and more in This Week in Organic, Episode Number Three.

Broadcasting live from London, welcome to This Week in Organic, the weekly show that debates the ramifications of the latest SEO and content marketing news. Sign up to watch the next show live at

Alright, hello and welcome, I’m David Bain. Each week I’ll be joined by some knowledgeable, opinionated folks to discuss the latest happenings in anything that impacts organic traffic. As for you dear viewer, get involved, we’d love to hear your opinion too. So just use the hashtag #TWIO on Twitter, that’s T-W-I-O, and if you’re watching live, your thoughts will magically appear in the chat box to my left hand side.

So let’s find out more about today’s guests, where they’re from and what’s caught their attention this week. So starting off with Ann, Ann welcome.

ANN SMARTY: Thank you for having me. So I’m introducing myself, right?

DAVID BAIN: Yes please, absolutely.

ANN SMARTY: I’m Ann Smarty, I’m Brand and Community Manager at Internet Marketing Ninjas. I’m also co-founder of, and I’m founder of, a free platform for bloggers. I also blog for around the web, and my person website is But I also contribute to Small Biz Trends, Search Engine Journal, Entrepreneur, and many other sites. You can also follow me on Twitter as @seosmarty, where I share everything I write.

DAVID BAIN: It’s hard not to find you if you’re involved in anything to do with SEO, isn’t it? Well Ann, has anything in particular caught your eye in terms of SEO and content marketing this week?

ANN SMARTY: Yeah. That penalty, the Google project where they invested project penalty has been all over the web this week, so I would love to see what others think about that.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, interesting. I’m sure we’ll have a good discussion about that. So let’s move on to Jeff.

JEFF SAUER: Thanks for having me. Jeff Sauer, I run a blog called I’ve been basically focusing on organic search, PPC, and analytics for the last ten-plus years, and that’s really my background. I went on the agency side, and now I’m more on the education side. So I teach people how to get interested and how to do internet marketing.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, lovely. You’ve certainly published some amazing articles in Jeffalytics, and loads of top blogs for top websites have picked out and linked back to them. So if you haven’t checked it before, check out the Jeffalytics blog. But let’s move on to Lucas.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Hi, it’s good to be here. I’m Lukasz Zelezny, I’m working as the head of an organisation called US Witch, for the last ten years I had the pleasure to work for different brands as an in-house marketer, and right now I am in Bucharest, where I will speak in a conference. So I am trying to be very active on these events, to share knowledge with people.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, lovely.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Thank you for the invitation.

DAVID BAIN: Oh, welcome. I’m sure everyone will recognise you more if you put on your hat, but maybe without your headphones on. Ah yes, that is you. You’re absolutely right, yeah. And let’s move on to Chris. Chris, how are you doing?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I’m doing good, David. Thanks for having me.

DAVID BAIN: Great. Would you like to introduce yourself, and perhaps give us a flavour of any particular topic that caught your interest this week?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Okay. I’m the president of Rank K.O. We specialise in online reputation management, which a lot of people don’t realise is a form of SEO, it’s just kind of reversed. Instead of trying to rank one website for a few key words, you’re trying to rank all websites for one key word. So it’s still SEO, it’s just a different version.

So my background is mostly in SEO. I’ve worked the full spectrum as a freelancer, in-house, at an agency, and then finally moved on to form my own agency. As far as things that have caught my attention this week in SEO, in organic, is Google Now is providing relevant information based on your text messages and things like that. I think that that’s a huge opportunity and I think it kind of goes with Twitter, it’s just that Google Now is really going to start providing more information based all the data it has from email, text, and who knows what’s next, maybe voice in the near future.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, it’s amazing. Obviously Danny Sullivan tweeting from Paris, and actually said he’d searched from underneath the Eiffel Tower, saying ‘How tall is it?’ and Google knew what he was referring to. So Google Now, Google voice search getting a lot more intelligent. That will be a good discussion point as well.

Let’s start off on the question that’s on everyone’s lips. And that is: ‘What happened to the dinosaurs?’ Because of course, that is a question that a few people asked Google this week, and they delivered a piece of content that wasn’t very relevant at all. They delivered a piece of content from 2007, telling us that dinosaurs were used to indoctrinate children. It’s a piece of content that was very controversial, it was a very old piece of content, and obviously it was a direct answer.

So I guess what I’m really referring to here is, what is the future regarding direct answers on Google. Is this something that, if Google keeps up delivering content that’s not great, that it can’t keep on going with this because it’s just not delivering high-quality content? Or is this something that will continue to refine and get right eventually, and it’s a good concept.

Who’s really in favour of direct answers here? Okay, not very many people. Okay, a better question. Ann, do you think that direct answers is something that is here to stay when it comes to Google search?

ANN SMARTY: I don’t think so. I think they will give it up as well as they gave up authorship at some time. I’m not sure if it’s possible to teach a machine to understand the right question. And to many answers, there is no right question. There are some answers that are subjective, some of them are just outdated, and some of them are just not right.

It’s especially dangerous when it comes to medical advice, for example. It’s dangerous. Not that many people know about dinosaurs now, that’s not very dangerous. When it comes to how to treat something and some of those things can be really urgent, and they get absolutely incorrect advice, that’s very dangerous.

But that’s not even the issue. I think that unless we understand ourselves what the right answer is, we are not able to teach machine to do that. So no matter how well they go into semantics, analysis, and how smart the machine is, I don’t see how those answers can be really something people could use. So I’m sceptical, I think that they will give it up.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, that’s interesting.

ANN SMARTY: It’s useful. Right now, it’s useful for them because they analyse the language much better with those, they have direct response so people can see those answers, and they can understand how well their machine is doing. I guess that’s useful data for them, but it has no future.

JEFF SAUER: I tend to disagree a little bit there, because I think that Google, their future is entirely invested in understanding language even more, so this is just a first step in it. But I think there is a lot of incentive for them to get this right, to get this technology right.

ANN SMARTY: Yeah, I’m sorry. My last point is, it’s not about the language. It’s not about how well they understand the language. I can understand the language, but I cannot give the correct answer to the question. For many questions, there are no correct answers. So it’s not always about the questions, it’s about interpreting facts, interpreting statistics, interpreting different opinions. So all of that, so it’s more than just language understanding.

DAVID BAIN: So by the sound of it, Google has two different options. It can either choose to deliver direct answers for queries that it’s much more confident that it knows the answer to, or it can maybe just stop doing this, and deliver SERPs, or try other things in the future. Ann, you think it’s more likely that in the future, just to clarify, that it’s more likely to stop delivering direct answers altogether?

ANN SMARTY: Yes, I think they will stop it. Like they did with authorship.

DAVID BAIN: Okay. Jeff, you were talking a little bit about it there. Is that your opinion as well, or do you think they will continue to test it?

JEFF SAUER: I think they’ll continue to test it, but I would say that if this takes away from their ad revenue then they might get rid of it. But other than that, I think they are trying to have searchers define what the right answer is. So they’re looking for searchers to click on things and to go through, and I’m sure they have metrics around it. So they’re taking a very data-driven approach to this. If this gets their users more satisfied with their searchers, they’ll continue to do it, as long as it doesn’t conflict with their advertising revenue.

So if they have people who search less often because of this, and they have less opportunity to monetise, then they’ll get rid of it. But I think that the key here that I see is, a lot of times they’re monetising…these are non-commercial queries, these are not queries that people put out there in order to…yeah, the queries are not commercial that they’re using this for


LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I just wanted to say that, David, if I can say just two words, I think the problem is also that we’re treating Google as… it’s just a medium. Back in the day, four years ago, you could buy a crappy book for some things that never existed. Some people could take this as true and they’d be in the same situation that we are in right now with Google.

I think that the problem is that Google is so widely accessible that people intentionally are taking everything that is written as right, and this means, ‘Oh, someone lied on the Internet?’ ‘No that would never happen.’ So I think this is another problem that we need to remember that Google is just a medium, even answering our question, it’s just a medium. It’s our subjective way of judging whether this is right or not.

DAVID BAIN: Chris, you’re obviously involved in reputation management, do you see direct answers impacting the reputation of the clients that you represent?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Not so much with the reputation management side of things. I will say, I do think they’ll continue to work on this and try to improve the direct answers. Their goal is to make all the information on the internet accessible. I heard in a video Larry Page saying that one of his big goals was to just to make Siri as advanced as possible, and get information as easily and quickly to people as humanly possible. Basically what I’m thinking is, they’re going to take this to another level.

Google Glass is kind of not a main thing right now, it’s put on the back burner, but I know it’s coming back. I think that that information from knowledge graft and the direct answers, all that information is going to be right in front of you once Google Glass, and any kind of wearable technology that’s coming out. I think where people are – and it kind of ties into the Google Now thing – everything is about getting that information in front of people so that they’re not searching.

So when you’re talking on your phone, Google is probably going to be listening to the words you’re saying, the keywords. You’re talking about a restaurant, it’s going to show you, it’s going to put that information for the restaurant in front of you. You’re going to be able to make a reservation. You’re asking questions, it’s going to give you answers. All that information, they want to put it right in front of you, and I think they’re going to continue to work on that.

DAVID BAIN: You talk about talking on your phone there. Are you referring to a phone conversation, or are you talking about using your voice to actually conduct a search? And if so, do you actually see the majority or lots of people doing that in the future? Or do you think the majority of people will still carry on typing in searches into their phone? Because obviously Google is investing a lot into voice search at the moment.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I’m talking about, you’re having a conversation between you and another person, and they’re listening to the key words that are being said in your conversation. So if you mention a restaurant, they’re going to show you information about that restaurant in case you want to make a reservation or see their hours of operation, or things like that.

It’s essentially the same thing that they’re doing now with email and ads and text messages and Google Now. I think that’s the ultimate level is, whenever you’re talking, whenever you’re emailing, searching Google, whatever it may be, whatever communication, even Twitter, all that communication is going to be analysed, and they’re going to start putting the information in front of you as quickly and as easily as possible, so that you’re not doing any clicks. There’s zero clicks, zero searches.

DAVID BAIN: So does anyone here actually regularly use Google voice search instead of actually typing things into their phone?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I just started to using voice recognition, but not for search, for writing. So if I need quickly to write something and I really don’t have the time, I’m talking to my phone, and I just started doing this recently. Moreover, I’ve been shocked how good it is for Apple devices, that even my mother tongue which is Polish, it’s very good with Polish language, which is like I’ve never seen something like that before.

When you have interview with me a couple of weeks ago, I’ve been kind of a sceptic regarding Siri, and I’m thinking that I’m still a sceptic because I cannot imagine 30 people on the bus in the morning, going to the office, doing voice search. That would be really, from one side annoying, and from the other side, you’re destroying this kind of privacy.

Where you’re typing, ‘Restaurant around me, ‘ or ‘Indian restaurant in South London,’ and when you have your mobile, and you’re like, ‘Hey Siri, tell me where is the closest restaurant.’ And 30 other people are doing the same at 8 o’clock in the morning. So I am a little convinced in terms of, I can write an article very quickly talking to my phone, and I’m using this Forever Note, for example. But search, I would like to stay with typing because I like a little curtain of privacy.

DAVID BAIN: So is Apple and Google maybe doing the wrong thing by investing so much into voice search, or is this something that has an impact on other services that they’re going to offer?

ANN SMARTY: I think that a lot of that has something to do with how we used to do things, and we know that we’re not the younger generation nowadays. People will get different habits and will get used to different things. I for one use Siri to find local restaurants, probably not daily but weekly, but that’s about it. I use it for local search, so for local passes, local shops, and she just started understanding me, so that’s a good thing. My accent, she didn’t understand me last year. Now she does, so I’m spending more time with her.

DAVID BAIN: I love the fact that you call her ‘her’ and ‘she.’ That’s nice.

ANN SMARTY: She talks like a woman, so what can I do? I’m not searching for regular things there because that’s not usually what I do on the go. On the go, I use local phrases for sure, to find stuff that’s nearby. But regular search, research, and writing or reading, I definitely use web and desk searching, typing. But I can tell that kids will be different, so whatever technology we’ll expose them to, they will probably pick it up.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, just to put another thought there, maybe Google could be using voice search as a way to actually train its little bots on different accents to actually make it better at doing things like transcribing text, and detecting podcasts, and actually being able to rank them based upon just audio and nothing to do with the text beside them.

JEFF SAUER: Absolutely. That dates all the way back to the Free 411 service that Google offered, the 1-800-Free-411 or Google 411, where you could get any information with your voice. I think they look at voice as an input to search. So it’s not necessarily voice search that they’re concerned about, it’s more voice as an overall indexation method, to be able to understand what voice is saying, and to index it, and to get all the information, and make it available.

Once again, they’re trying to access all the world’s information. So voice is analogue information that they’re making digital, and I would agree that the search interface is a great way for that to happen.

DAVID BAIN: Hmm. It’s all about looking into ulterior meanings, I guess, or meanings behind what might be obvious with regards to what Google and other big technology companies are trying to do. They must have big plans in place for the future, and it’s not necessarily about offering one service, it’s about how each service relates to one another and how they can talk to each other, I guess as well.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: It’s the same concept as the reverse image search, so when you do a reverse image search, Google will tell you, ‘This is the best search term, or recommended key word or search term for this image.’ Basically what they’re doing with YouTube is, they’re taking that frame, and every frame they’re able to make a recommendation on the key word for that frame. So as you have a video, you can put all those key words together and kind of have additional data for the video.

DAVID BAIN: So talking about Google’s different services, last year they invested in a company called Thumbtack. As Ann suggested in the introduction, Thumbtack have actually been penalised by Google, and even though they’ve invested in them. If you search Google now for the brand name Thumbtack, it doesn’t even come up at all.

Can Google actually be trusted to police themselves? So that any brands that they might own, can they be trusted to actually treat them in a manner that they might treat competing brands? Is that something that is going to be a big concern in the future, possibly with Google having such a big control over search results? Ann, you talked about that a little bit initially. What’s your thoughts on that?

ANN SMARTY: I think one of the most interesting questions here is; would it have been penalised had the case not gone public? We’ll never know because at first, I forgot the name, but some very public SEO figure blogged about their practices, and when that article went public, went viral, only after that the site was penalised.

So would it have happened if it hadn’t gone public? So we’ll never know. What I think, whether we can trust Google, no. We cannot trust anyone in this world, but their projects are very public. I’m sure they recognise that the whole world is watching what they are doing, and what their capital-backed projects are doing as well. So whether we can trust them or not, my answer is, of course, no. But we have the community that will help to police that.

DAVID BAIN: That’s great, and that can be part of the solution. Of course, in Europe, you’ve got the EU and anti-trust legislation, but that kind of anti-trust focus is less likely in the States possibly. Do you, in the States, hope that the European Union takes fairly strong-armed tactics toward big corporations like Google, and perhaps Microsoft in the past? Or do you view that as a negative? Do you think it’s better for the public or a community to deal with these kinds of things?

ANN SMARTY: I have no idea why Google feels so good in the United States. No anti-monopoly committee has ever touched it, I don’t know why. I think that it’s important for this country, because they offer so many jobs, and they are very good for the economy. I would like to see what others think, because I’m not really that high-level expert in that, whether we need that anti-trust committee and whether it can help or not. I guess we are doing a pretty good job right now, and Google has to listen to us, which is awesome. So I would love to see what others think as well.

DAVID BAIN: Well Lukasz, you’re our European representative, so what’s your opinion on this?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, as the European representative, I think that we could observe this kind of similar actions, in the past. I’m thinking right now about Google Japan, and I’m thinking about one price comparing website that had been acquired by Google right after being penalised. So I’m not surprised. But answering this question, if we can trust this or not, I think sometimes Google becomes a victim of its own success.

There is no competitor and some government legislatures are trying to control this a little. So far I think that there is no proof that it was working very well. However, from the other side, you can see that Google is very, very protective about organic results, so they really call this organic, and they’re really doing a lot to make this still stay organic, and that’s penalizing their own businesses they acquire. It’s one of the outcomes of these politics.

It’s very difficult to answer if we can trust this. At the end of the day, it’s a company which is trying to generate profit, and I think that would be my conclusion. We are also a little guilty because we are the people who sometimes may complain, but then next second we access SEOs, the next second we open Google to find something around because we know that Google is serving the best results. So very difficult question to answer, very direct.

JEFF SAUER: I think, no. No Google…they’re not… Let’s go back to the original founders of Google, they’re computer scientists, and their goal is above all else to find all the information possible. They don’t really think about barriers, they don’t think with a human element at all. It’s basically a computational program to gather as much information as they can and to do whatever they want with it.

So I’m not sure anti-trust is the right way to get them to stop doing that, because that’s what they’re going to do. But it’s more; how do you make sure they don’t get out of control? How do they not take it three levels past where they should, and to turn it into something that could be actually dangerous for the world? That’s really my concern with what they’re doing here.

I think the other problem we face is that Google has 50,000-plus employees, and all these employees are focused on doing different things, so I don’t know if they all are co-ordinated. So doing all this, catching all this data, doing everything they can, getting away with whatever they can within the framework of the US, is more dangerous because there is nobody regulating what they’re doing. There’s no kill switch involved in order to just say, ‘You can’t do this anymore.’ That’s what worries me the most, is more of the long-term implications to the overall world, and the all the intelligence they’re gathering, and what they use that for.

DAVID BAIN: So Chris, how do you walk the line then, between increased growth and profitability, and trying to deliver information that is independent and accurate?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I think that’s what they’re trying to do is walk that line, and in the US it seems to be a bit more lenient. But in Europe, they’re trying to break up different parts of Google into different companies, different entities. Another challenge they’re having is, some of these countries are insisting that the data be stored within the country. So it is a fine line that they need to walk, but I think they’re going to keep finding solutions and ways to move forward. I don’t think it’s going to slow them down at all.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, bit of a challenge there. I guess, watch the space. It’s incredible, such an evolving area. We’re obviously in an industry that hasn’t existed before, so to certain degree, companies like Google have to make the rules as they go along. Then you’ve got governments who’ve had previous rules and laws that didn’t really apply to what is actually happening now at the moment, and they’re scrambling to actually catch up.

Perhaps it could be argued that it’s governments that aren’t doing a good job, and aren’t on top of things. Is anyone quite concerned about how behind different governments are about understanding what big companies like Google are up to nowadays?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I was reading recently that the German government was trying to ask Google to have access organic algorithm, and obviously I think it will never happen. Another article I was reading when I think someone from France was trying to convince that Google should pay newspapers for delivering traffic, which is totally flipping the whole concept, because it was never like that, always websites had to pay for traffic.

So Google was like, I think that would be right to say that they were like, ‘So we can turn this off.’ It already happened as far as I was reading in Spain. So it’s very…it doesn’t make me worry, it doesn’t make me worry at all. But it’s very much like you said, that some solutions didn’t catch up, and this industry is evolving so fast, that sometimes some solutions are not quite working for what we have right now.

DAVID BAIN: It’s not only Google that’s changing. We’ve got companies like Apple that are starting to tip-toe into search a little bit more with their involvement in Maps and searches there as well. But let’s talk about that in just a minute.

But first of all, I’d just like to say that, I’m pleased to say that This Week in Organic is now a video podcast in iTunes, so if you haven’t subscribed to that, just go and you’ll go straight to the show. So when you’re at it, rate it and review it as well. So every little helps with that, and that is much appreciated.

I was just talking about Apple Maps there. Apple have announced recently that they’re going to be including things like transit within their Maps service. I’ve now got an iPhone but I use the Google Maps app for all kind of walking about London different places, because I find the Google Map service a little bit better, and more information on there. Does anyone here actually use, first of all, an iPhone, and also the Apple Map service on a regular basis?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Yeah, that’s what I use.

DAVID BAIN: Do you use that? Okay. Do you find that better than the Google Maps service?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I haven’t used the Google Maps on iPhone.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, wow. Do you think that Apple are continually improving their Map service, have you noticed different updates over the last few months?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I wouldn’t say there’s been too many updates. What I don’t like about it though is the reviews. When you open up the reviews, it opens it up in Yelp. I don’t want to have to load another app, it takes too long, and I’ve got to switch back to the other one. So I think that’s an area of improvement there, having those reviews right in the app.

DAVID BAIN: Right, okay. I live in London, and I want to actually see transit lines, tube lines, and you just can’t see that within Apple easily. In fact, the graphics within the app, I find it hard to differentiate what’s a tube station, what’s a restaurant or whatever. All these images or icons are very similar in design. Visually maybe it looks very appealing, but for me to quickly differentiate what something is, I don’t find that as easy as Google Maps. Does anyone else use Apple Maps on their iPhone, if you’ve got one?

JEFF SAUER: Sometimes I do by accident. I don’t intend to, but sometimes it opens up things when I’m in certain apps.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Do you have the same like ‘Oh whoa, where am I?’

JEFF SAUER: Yeah, exactly. The first thing I do is close Apple Maps and open up Google Maps.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I have the same, because the icons are so similar. They need to do something with the icons.

ANN SMARTY: One thing to keep in mind for Apple Maps is that they’re very well-integrated into Apple Watch. I think more and more people will be using Apple Watch, and I’ve heard already that using them for navigating, using the watch for navigating is very convenient. So I guess that there will be more people at least using the Apple Maps in the watch, but I use them in my iPhone as well.

DAVID BAIN: Do you have an Apple Watch, Ann?

ANN SMARTY: Not yet, but I’m definitely buying one. I think it’s very useful for fitness and sports, that’s the reason.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, anybody else have an Apple Watch or going to be getting one?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I probably will buy one. If Ann is buying one, I need to have one as well.

JEFF SAUER: I’m thinking about it, maybe second-generation though.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, that’s a good thought actually, I didn’t get the iPhone until the third generation. Sometimes the first generation or so can be a little bit iffy. The same with the Kindle as well.

So, talking about Apple Maps again, Jeff, what you said was quite interesting, because you said that sometimes the Apple Maps open by mistake or by default in your phone, and then you quickly switch to Google Maps. Do you think you can ever see a stage, over the next year or so, when you will be wanting to open the Apple Maps by default, over the Google ones?

JEFF SAUER: Yeah, feature parity is the big thing. When is it going to have the parity that I have with Google Maps? Google Maps does what I need it to do. I use it as my navigation system, I use it for transit maps. Those are the main times that I use it. When Apple does the same thing, one advantage they have is that it’s integrated in the operating system. So as soon as the operating system allows us to have the things that I need, then yeah, I’ll consider it.

The problem is, part of the problem is accuracy, I don’t think it’s as accurate as what Google has. The other one is, it’s not the same experience right now. And so the best thing that Apple Maps can be, in my opinion, is a slightly not-as-great version of Google Maps. Then I might consider using it just because I don’t have to use multiple things. It’s a curious thing that they’re doing with Apple Map in the first place. What’s their agenda? What are they doing? Other than just having full control over what they’re doing. I just think the product is sub-par.

DAVID BAIN? What is their agenda? Lukasz, I saw your eyes looking up there, thinking, ‘Hmm, what is their agenda?’

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I just had this flashback from old time, and I feel like, I know this is horrible example, but Flash versus Silverlight, I feel like Google wrote a fantastic product and Apple was like, ‘Okay, we need to have something like that as well.’ It’s not innovative enough, and so on, and so on, and so on. They are great, I’m a big fan of Apple by the way, but this example is showing that there are some areas that are not the right way.

I feel like, after these couple of years, they are still behind, and Google is so quickly improving with their application, that they have very big challenge to catch them up in the future.

ANN SMARTY: I think there a huge thing here is that Google is investing a lot in that data. They are continuously working on it with Google Street View and stuff, and we’ve seen this for years. Apple just bought someone else’s maps, and they’re still using it without really improving anything. So it’s more a huge data issue. If you own and work on data, it’s always better than just using an API or buy someone else’s.

DAVID BAIN: What you were saying there, Lukasz, with Silverlight and Flash, it reminded me of Betamax and VHS video.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes. Very nice example.

JEFF SAUER: The other thing it reminds me of is when Google bought DoubleClick, and then Yahoo! And Microsoft went out and bought their own advertising agencies, just because they felt like they needed it because that one move was made.

DAVID BAIN: The interesting thing about VHS and Betamax was that…I don’t remember much about it, but I remember people saying to me that Betamax was the better product, but VHS ended up winning because it just gained that traction, gained that popularity as well. So maybe in time, Apple will keep on improving their map service, but more and more people will just use Google Maps because that’s what everyone else is using.

ANN SMARTY: The problem is that they seem to be working on integrating the maps without improving the product first. So they now integrate it into Apple Watch, but it’s the same maps. So they’re not really working on the actual maps, but they are integrating them all over the place, hoping that will improve their popularity. It might work if Apple Watch really takes off.

DAVID BAIN: So, was it a mistake, launching Apple Maps before the service was really top-notch?

ANN SMARTY: I think that was…

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Hasn’t impacted their profit.

ANN SMARTY: Yeah. I think that there is now, they can improve their product for ages and never launch it. So launching it in beta is not a bad thing, it’s not a mistake. It’s not working on it further that is the mistake. I’ve been using Apple Maps for ages, and I’ve never seen any upgrade to them for all those ages. I’ve never seen them improve. So that’s a mistake, not launching it, not really.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Well, I think it’s a mistake to not let people have a choice, that’s the big thing. If you don’t even get to choose what you’re using, and Apple Maps is inferior, you’re pushing people in the wrong direction, and having them do inaccurate things.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I also wanted to mention… I don’t know, this is a little weird, this value which exists, this emotional value. So sometimes you can open the Google Street, travel to the places where you’ve been as a kid. Then you can go to see how it’s changed a lot. I’m doing this personally on London Victoria. London Victoria is in development for ten years, and I wanted to see how that was in 2007, 2009, 2011, and how it looks right now. I can see this on Google Street View, because I can go back. I think that’s amazing value, because this product will be forever, or for the next hundred years, that will be something which will be used in so many places. We don’t even know where, maybe in education and so on.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I think Apple Maps couldn’t afford to wait too much longer to launch. Apple couldn’t wait too much longer to launch their map platform because, like Jeff was saying, you can’t have just one map application. You’ve got to have two, and Apple’s really in the best position to have a competing map platform.

The other thing is, going back to what Ann was saying, Google has better data. They’re investing in the data, but they’re also an original source of the data. So when a local business, for example, starts looking at SEO, what’s the first thing that they do? They say, ‘Oh, well, seems like I need to set up a Google+ local business page.’ They’re not saying, ‘Oh, let’s go set up an Apple Map page,’ which I don’t’ even think exists. So as far as finding local businesses, Google has the best source of data because business owners know that’s what they need if they want to be found in Google.

ANN SMARTY: I’m not even sure what Apple is using for local businesses. Is it Yelp?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I think it’s Yelp, yeah.

ANN SMARTY: I know that they sometimes use that for the actually location. I think the Yelp database is larger than Apple Mac’s database. Sometimes I find places on Yelp and go to Apple Maps to find the place. There is no business identified there.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: The last I read, I believe they’re pulling from Foursquare, a few of the navigational apps, and Yelp. I think it’s just a big collection of data, which from a big data standpoint, how can you provide accurate data when you have all these different sources? That’s why Google Maps is just a clean source of data. People are managing it, there’s Google Map Maker where people are reporting things they’re finding on the back-end, they’re crowd sourcing the maps, it’s just a very clean dataset in Google Maps.

ANN SMARTY: Yeah. It seems a very weird decision on their part. They are really integrating their maps all over the place, but they don’t own any data, which is weird. Google is always very conscious about that. Unless they own the data, they are not using it. Like with social media indexation, they mention that, ‘We cannot use Twitter as a linking platform because we don’t own that data. So we cannot invest into that. And Apple, they have that product and they don’t own any data agreement, which is weird.

DAVID BAIN: So one thing… Go ahead, Chris.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Okay. I was going to say, the one time Google makes an exception with the Yelp reviews, look what happened there. Yelp ended up trying to sue them and it just didn’t work out. That’s still their final frontier with Google, is to get more reviews, because until now, Yelp has the best reviews and the best review filtering. I mean, when I say best review filtering, I’m talking about from the consumer side of things. As a business owner, it can be a bit tricky to manage those, but that’s Google’s one area that they are not dominating, is with the reviews.

DAVID BAIN: One thing that Apple have announced as well, of course, is that they’re going to launching iOS-9 fairly soon. As part of that, they’re also said that they’re going to be removing the Newsstand facility. Now, I’ve used Newsstand quite a bit in the past, actually published a digital magazine. They’re not saying that publishing functionality is going to be taken away, but what you’re going to have to do in the future is publish something, and it’s going to be directly, just as its own app, or you can syndicate it to their news app. Does anyone actually use Newsstand at all?

JEFF SAUER: I used it once in order to get the digital marketing magazine that you published.

DAVID BAIN: That’s interesting. So if you’re not using, that must say something in terms of why they’re taking it away. They certainly haven’t done much updating to it at all. With their new news app, I noticed they’ve got partnership with lots of big publishers. So maybe that’s something they’re looking to do in the future, and it’s more drive partnerships with bigger publishers, rather than actually encourage independent publishing.

One functionality within the new news app – that’s funny to say, new news app – you can actually syndicate an RSS feed to theirs. I believe that you could actually publish from a blog to the new news app. So Jeff, another blogger said that perhaps might be something worthwhile looking at. Is that something that you’ve looked into at all?

JEFF SAUER: I’ve syndicated my blog to things like Kindles and everything, but it’s such a small percentage. My thoughts on this goes back to what Ann said earlier about voice search, and how we’re a generation that doesn’t use voice search, so we think that it’s bed, or we just don’t think it’s the right thing, but a younger generation that’s coming in might use it, and they might thrive in it. I think that Newsstand and those types of things are really taking what a generation above even myself is used to doing, which is reading the paper, reading magazines, and they’re just making it digital.

The reason I don’t think it’s taken off is because it’s not fitting the new format. It’s taking the old format, and putting it into a new medium, and I don’t that’s usually what works very well. So if they’re rethinking it, and saying, ‘How do we make it more engaging for a younger generation, or for younger people who want to engage with content?’ I think that gives it a chance to do better. I think that, in general, discovery now works way differently than it did before.

It used to be that you’d have a source put in front of you, and then you’d discover, but now it’s sort of the opposite. You don’t even care about the source a lot of times, it’s really what’s being said. So to limit how we look at things, and make our discovery based on publications, I think it’s just the opposite of where things are going.

DAVID BAIN: So at the moment, you don’t have any intention of syndicating Jeffalytics to lots of other places, or a few other places, and releasing content to other platforms? You’re simply focusing on publishing the best content you can on your blog, and driving people directly to that.

JEFF SAUER: That’s a good question. I’m all about as many people reading it as possible, and I’d even automatically push one format to other things. So I’m not against it. Anything you can do to get more traffic is obviously a good thing. You know, Flipboard’s worked pretty well for some of my blogs. Zite will work well for blogs. Those are mediums that absolutely should be considered. So if Newsstand can take the place of that, yeah, I’m all about it. Personally, I concentrate more on just getting it done because it’s not my primary profession.

DAVID BAIN: Right, okay. I was also going to link to Ann there, as well, because Ann, you’re a content publisher as well, you publish a lot of content. So you’ve published content on lots of different authoritative blogs in the past, but are you looking at the potential of syndicating that content to apps as well? Or is that something you’re actively doing just now?

ANN SMARTY: I’m not actively doing that, but it’s been on my to-do list for more than a couple of months. I have not had an opportunity because I’ve been busy, but that’s something I would love to look into. Again, I wish I could be more on top of these newer things coming in like the app that we discussed before, the Periscope or whatever. I would love to check all the new formats and the apps and things, but I have only 24 hours a day.

DAVID BAIN: Exactly. Sometimes you’re better off focusing on what you’re great at, doing a good job of it.

ANN SMARTY: Yes. Like, I know, I’ve been in the industry for so many years, and I barely keep up with what I’m used to doing. So I’ve used the content, but I don’t have time to explore new things, which I know is a bad thing, and my plan is to change that. I’m old school, so I’m good at the old channels that I’m used to. I mean, I know Google Glass is newer than anything else, and I’m using it with everything else too, but I know I need to do a better job of that.

DAVID BAIN: Well, you don’t look old school. [Laughter] Lukasz, I know you do a lot of blogging on LinkedIn.


DAVID BAIN: Have you noticed much interaction on the LinkedIn app, or the LinkedIn website, or is it difficult to track the difference between them both?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: No. LinkedIn is like my holy grail of social media. I love LinkedIn. I was talking today to my audience on IC, in Bucharest, at LinkedIn. This is the best social media right now, I think. I have a nice audience there, and people are reading. I have comments. If I would like to go above that, I think I’m also a fan of audio books and audio magazines. So just record this, and hiring someone who sounds like David Attenborough, for example, reading my blog. That would be…

DAVID BAIN: I thought you were going to say David Bain, there. No?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: You know that you are on top of my list. [Laughter] Yeah, David Bain or David Attenborough, and serving content in this way. Why? Because imagine, again I will go back to the bus which is going through London in the morning, and you have so many people, but you have your headphones, and you have your magazine, and you can listen. For one hour, I think Jeff and his blog could be there, and there will be a couple of articles, a very interesting way of serving this. Then someone like me, who would be listening to these articles, would come to the office at nine o’clock and be like, you know, have this kind of inspiration.

This is what e-consultancies are doing with their newsletter. They’re sending this work every way. They’re sending this at eight o’clock in the morning, so everybody who’s going to the office is reading what’s going on in the online world. Then you have, at nine o’clock when you’re starting to work, you have the ability to utilise this. So I would say blogging, and this kind of written articles, that’s my top priority, but also audio books and this audio version of the written article, is something that I will be keeping a focus on.

DAVID BAIN: Right, okay. Chris, obviously you’re a content publisher as well. Do you tend to focus on your blog, or are you looking at other syndication, perhaps offline digital opportunities?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Yeah. As far as offline, I’m looking to publish a book soon. For syndication, something that I want to start doing is taking the articles on our website, and some of the resources that we’ve created, whether they’re written or video, and I want to turn them all into audio, then just start publishing them and syndicating them to iTunes, Audible. I want to take some of the longer content pieces, and maybe try to put them into an Audible audiobook, even if it’s shorter. I see audiobooks on Audible that are only an hour or two long, so it doesn’t have to be a full-length book to be an audiobook.

Getting the videos, and converting them to audio, and getting it syndicated to these different sources, is really big. Vimeo, Daily Motion, some of these second-tier video platforms that people aren’t necessarily using, I still see an opportunity. If you can find a way to automatically take one video, and syndicate it to all these sources, it’s just going to build your brand up. Then placing those videos in less-common places.

Tim Ferris, when he did the four hour work week… Oh no, four hour body, one of them. He put it on YouTorrent, which is commonly known for torrenting and whatnot, but he put it up there for free, the bonus chapters or whatever, and he drove a ton of impression to his Amazon. So that’s not really syndication, but just syndicating to less-known places, and just getting your content in as many places as possible, if it can be done efficiently, is going to provide a lot of value because you’re reaching all these different corners of the web where people are hanging out.

DAVID BAIN: It was interesting both you, Chris, and also Lukasz, mentioned audio, but you both said audiobooks rather than podcasts. Is that because your perception of audiobooks is higher quality, and you’re not really focusing on podcasts?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I don’t consider this to be much different. I think very often I’m using those two words as synonyms.

DAVID BAIN: Right. Are you the same, Chris?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: No, I see them as very different. I listen to an audiobook a week. I don’t listen to too many podcasts anymore, but to me they’re definitely a lot different. An audiobook is something that you’re going to listen to for up to 20 hours, and just get a very in-depth knowledge eon a specific topic. Whereas a podcast, the subject is going to vary. It’s going to be in the same category, but it’s going to vary from chapter to chapter. There’s less flow. It’s not really an in-depth exploration of a specific topic. It’s more information about new things that are coming up. There’s less connection between all the different videos.

DAVID BAIN: It’s interesting, because it takes us back to SEO there as well. It’s words, and it’s what words mean to different people as well. I remember talking about internet marketing ten years ago, and talking about providing internet marketing services. Then it changed in terms of general meaning, and a lot of people thought that internet marketing meant make money online, and online marketing or digital marketing was maybe a better description of agency-type services.

The perception of what words mean can change significantly over time. It goes back to the very simple notions of keyword research, and how your own perceptions don’t necessarily mean what your audience is looking for. So I found that intriguing, just your own thoughts on that. Let’s just talk about the very last topic, and that’s, Dick Costolo quits as Twitter CEO. So Twitter has three million active users or so. They’ve got Periscope, they had about one million people signing up for Periscope in the first ten days. They’re also earning about $500 million per quarter.

So sounds like a decent amount of money, but of course, investors and shareholders, they don’t seem to be that happy with how it’s going. So does Twitter need to change commercially, in terms of its business model, to be more successful moving forward? So maybe I’ll have each one of your thoughts just on that quickly. And, do you think Twitter’s current model is sustainable for the longer term?

ANN SMARTY: I don’t know. I’ve never clicked a Twitter ad in my life, and I’m on Twitter every other hour a day. So I definitely see that they… I love Twitter and I feel bad about the fact that they trouble monetizing it well, but I don’t see how the current model is really effective. As a user, I’ve never clicked an ad. I have seen a lot, but on Facebook I usually feel like clicking the link that they are sponsoring, and I can see that it’s an ad, but I still think I should click it because it’s so aligned to what I’m interested in and even what I’m currently good at.

With Twitter, if you compare these two social media platforms, with Twitter I never feel like clicking. It’s irrelevant mostly, and not interesting for me. So I think they should really think more about targeting, I guess, and even more, but other types of ads. Not text things, but something different, would help. Currently, as a user and a customer, I don’t see that as being effective. I tried advertising on Twitter several times as well, and I’ve seen those same results. There are even clicks and views, and no real publicity, no traffic, no recognition, no brand value, and I’ve tried several times.

DAVID BAIN: That’s incredible. You’re a power Twitter user, you’ve got 49,000 followers on Twitter. So if you haven’t clicked on a Twitter ad, that’s a significant concern surely, to the guys running the business.

ANN SMARTY: Yeah. I’m active on Facebook much less. On Twitter I’m real-time. I’m using tweet back that’s delivering my feeds and what I’m tracking to my best stuff. So I’m all the time on Twitter, not that I need to go there to be active. On Facebook, I’m probably active twice a day, and I click ads there, and on Twitter I don’t. I see them sometimes, but I just don’t feel like clicking them.

DAVID BAIN: Jeff, have you ever clicked an ad on Twitter?

JEFF SAUER: No. It’s funny, I lived in San Francisco, across the street from Twitter’s world headquarters. So I sort of walked past it every day, and it’s funny that they don’t really seem like they’re struggling too much. So that was an interesting. I also started advertising myself on Twitter, and the results have been very poor – like no results. Nobody’s clicked, or the clicks have happened but no sales, or no anything. So it reminds me less of Google infancy, and more of Facebooks’ infancy, where you were trying to get people to click on ads and disrupt them in a time-wasting way.

A lot of times with Facebook and Twitter, you’re going to be entertained, not to be interrupted. I’ve never clicked on a Facebook ad, to be honest with you, but I’ve considered it, at least, once those ads became better. So once Facebook started with their new formats that worked a little bit better to the medium of how I was consuming it, at least I would start to like pages, or start to do things based on sponsorships.

So I think what it’s going to come down to for Twitter is, their first pass, what they have right now, is bad both for the user, as Ann said, and it’s really bad for the advertiser too. I was super-frustrated just trying to get my ads in place. Until they figure out a way to make it so the users click on it, and then more advertisers want to use it, I don’t see it succeeding. But I think that to say that it’s not going to happen is… I mean, there’s so many people invested in making that happen, that I think that it will. It’s just that it’s not going to be what it looks like today.

DAVID BAIN: So Lukasz, is Periscope the big saviour for Twitter?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Oh, you know, the answer. You saw me recently, how I was broadcasting from the airport, flying, and that was especially because I saw you broadcasting before. Yeah, Periscope is something new, and I’m very excited about this. I’m seeing what Guy Kawasaki’s doing with his presentations. Every time he’s presenting something, it’s instant. Periscope, I think it’s a great thing; however, there is always the open debate on what is the way to use this.

That’s one thing, and according to Twitter, I think I will agree with what Ann said about the creation of the efforts. It’s not the best, and also the targeting is way behind what Facebook right now is offering. So I think that needs to be improved, these two things need to be improved. Periscope, we will see. I think it’s a great, great, great application. It’s a little too early to say where it can be used.

So far, like I mentioned, I saw that people are broadcasting their conferences, they’re broadcasting their travels. If some people are sceptical about the marketing value of this, I can say that Vine, which is probably the craziest social media platform ever, is doing very well. So let’s give them a little more time, and we will see what will happen.

DAVID BAIN: What about you, Chris? What’s your thoughts on the future of Twitter?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: I think they’re definitely figure out the advertising. I’ve never clicked on a Twitter ad either, which is crazy now that I think about it. When I go to Twitter, there’s a lot of junk to filter through. I’m usually scrolling pretty quick, I’m going to a few lists of mine, I’m going to check on a few influencers like Grant Cardone and some of these guys, and just seeing what they’re up to. I’m checking it frequently, I would say ten to fifteen times a day, but whenever I’m there, I’m there quick, I’m moving quickly. I’m trying to look for the few gems in all the other tweets that are going on, and I’m not going to click on an ad, there’s just no way.

Also, the ads do seems to be irrelevant. A lot of ads about credit cards and other stuff that I’m not really I’m not really interested in. So I do think they’re figure it out, though, and I think maybe a CPM might be better because there’s so much traffic. I’m not really sure how they’re going to figure it out, but I am confident they’ll figure it out. We’ve tried Twitter advertising and got poor results.

Now we’re investing in more organic type of Twitter marketing strategy. If you look at our Rank K.O. Twitter feed, we have a lot of activity going on. We’re investing $1,000 a month in more organic type of service, that is basically following and unfollowing people automatically, and you’re controlling a cluster of accounts that will retweet a few of the mother accounts, and it’s very, very effective at building followers for alternate accounts, and also for driving traffic to your website and to your articles and videos and whatnot.

So just using Twitter organically is a hundred times more effective than the advertising. But I think Periscope and Meerkat, that’s really something that’s going to explode, and I’m trying to get on that too. Just one of the things we did a week or two ago, I was doing a video tutorial on something, just me discussing something in front of the camera. We put it up on YouTube, but meanwhile one of my employees was just behind me with a cell phone, with Periscope on, and he was just recording the behind the scenes. It was just an idea, I had seen someone on Periscope doing that. It was a behind the scenes news studio and it was pretty cool.

So we’re just getting creative and trying to find new ways to use Periscope, but I think it’s a really, really good opportunity. If you could build up a following on Meerkat and Periscope, I think it’s going to be one of the next big channels that you can market your business on.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah. It’s quite incredible. Periscope, I’ve only done two broadcasts on it myself, and I did one last night. The second broadcast, over 150 watched, and you’re not going to get that just starting out in any other network. So it really is a nascent opportunity at the moment. If you’re on Twitter with quite a few followers, it’s an opportunity to quickly develop quite a big following in there. So I guess watch this space for that one.

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: Yeah, and I can tell you right now, PR firms, crisis management firms, and reputation management firms, they’re kind of nervous about both of these live-streaming tools because you don’t know what’s going on. For example, that news studio where one of the employees was doing the behind the scenes video. Well, there’s other people standing around. If they don’t know that that person’s live-streaming, and they say something on the stream that’s controversial, there you go, you’ve got a PR crisis on your hand.

An article came out recently, someone was writing about how to use Periscope for business, and that was one of the big concerns they were talking about, is that it’s just a disaster waiting to happen. It’s just a matter of time before something happens, where someone says something or sees something that shouldn’t have been publicly available. So it’s just something to look for too.

DAVID BAIN: Wow, and you’re just about opening up a new conversation there, that we keep on going for another hour. I’ve got to be really conscious about your time as well because we’ve been on air for over an hour here. You’ve offered a lot of incredible content, and you’re the kind of people that can keep on offering amazing content. I reckon that’s just about taken us to the end of what we’re going to be talking about today, but let’s conclude by just everyone perhaps giving one piece to take away. So perhaps your number one thought on what we’ve discussed so far today, and also your own contact details, maybe as well. So starting off with Ann.

ANN SMARTY: Well, my big take-away today is that not only I, but we all need to be more up-to-date with what the younger generation is doing, and how they’re using web apps. Dare to try. Not all of them should be like the marketing or anything, but just more…maybe a separate day a week when I’m just exploring what’s new on social media, and what apps exist, and what I can do with them, what others are doing with them.

So I think that should be definitely on my own and everyone’s to-do, because the app is evolving so fast. And like I said, you can follow me, or just check me out on Twitter, @seosmarty. So that’s the best way to get in touch with me.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, great.

ANN SMARTY: Thank you for having me.

DAVID BAIN: Oh, and thank you for coming on. You offered a lot of great value there. So Ann, just keep on learning, you are saying there. So Jeff.

JEFF SAUER: Yeah, you can reach me at @jeffalytics on Twitter. My big take-away from today, it just confirms a lot of things that I thought about just Google in general, and their position in the world, or organising all the information. If you want to be aligned with Google in the future, it’s all about creating information they can consume.

So as a content creator, it’s not always the medium that’s available today, it’s understanding the new mediums as well, like Ann said. So keep an eye on the future, and don’t let it get in the way of what’s working for you today. So it’s sort of like, 80% of your time spend on things that work today. Maybe 20% on your time, like Google’s 20% time, spend it on research and preparing yourself for the future, and trying new things.

DAVID BAIN: Great thought. And where’s the best place for someone to get hold of you?

JEFF SAUER: Just is my website, and it’s a blog talking about analytics, for the most part, and a few other things like SEO and WordPress.

DAVID BAIN: Lovely. Okay, let’s move on to Lukasz.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: So you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn, Lukasz Zelezny. My wrap-up would be to say that we have this kind of, I would say, little second revolution. So many things right now are available very quickly, evolving and changing. I had very interesting conversation today with Cosmin, who is the CEO of SEO Monitoring, Bucharest. We agreed that it’s a little, this time that people are thinking about things that they were always doing, and they are so much sticking into, and maybe they shouldn’t because sometimes when you hear, ‘Oh, you’re reading from Kindle only paper books.’

I’m saying, ‘You know what, 600 years ago there was a guy, Gutenberg, and probably when he invented fonts, someone came to him and said, ‘Oh no, only handwriting.’ Then people started to use fonts, and printing books. So this is an example of where we are right now, in the time. It will be evolving, and the new tools like Periscope and Meerkat will take over, and there will be a little second revolution very soon. So that would be my…. And thank you very much for the invitation. It was a pleasure to be here.

DAVID BAIN: Wonderful. Okay, thanks for joining us, yeah. Chris, what are your thoughts on today, and how would people get in touch with you?

CHRIS SANFILIPPO: So I guess my main take-aways would be; get your data and your information where Google, and Apple, and all these other sources, where it’s coming from. So make sure that your business can be found within Apple Maps, within Siri, within Google Now, within Google Search, obviously, and just look at where those companies and those platforms are getting that data. Make sure that your data is there so it can be found.

The other take-away I guess would be, with the social media. I don’t want to say I’m in the younger generation or the older, I’m kind of somewhere in the middle. So I’m used to new things coming out, but it seems like recently it just got turned up three notches. There’s new things coming out every day. Meerkat, I just discovered that last week. I’m on it, I’m checking it out. I don’t know much about it, but I know that if one of these things takes off and I’m there early, at that point it’s worth a little bit of my time.

So if you can have someone else using a camera, and setting up Periscope, and letting it go automatically, it’s not too much time. You’re killing two birds with one stone, so take advantage of all these opportunities. As far as finding me, you can go to Then on Twitter we’re @rankkoUSA, and tweeting about reputation management most of the time, and a little bit about SEO.

DAVID BAIN: I’m David Bain, head of growth at, and you can also catch me interviewing online marketing gurus over at Now, if you’re watching this show as a recording, remember to watch the next episode live. So head over to and sign up to watch the next show in real-time.

For those of you watching live, thank you for participating, and remember to continue sharing your thoughts, using the hashtag #TWIO. Until next time, have a fantabulous weekend, and thank you all for joining us. Adios. Cheers, everyone. Thank you for being a part of it.

JEFF SAUER: Thanks, David.


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