TWIO-24: Ranking number 1 could be more important than you thought

This is the twenty fourth episode of, ‘This Week In Organic’, the weekly show that debates the ramifications of the latest SEO and content marketing news.

In this episode, among other things we talk about why ranking number 1 on Google could be more important than you thought – Penguin’s a comin, what defenses should you be putting up? And how can can marketers do a better job at integrating online and offline experiences? Plus much more!

Our host, David Bain is joined by Lukasz Zelezny from uSwitch, Alexandra Tachalova from and Dave Naylor from Bronco.

Sign up to watch the next show live over at and share your thoughts on what’s discussed using the hashtag #TWIO on Twitter.

In this week’s episode we discuss…

1. Ranking number 1 on Google is more important than you thought

A study published by Wayfair on Search Engine Land says that you can get a 160% increase on on-site conversion rates if you get your traffic from position number 1 on the SERPs rather than lower positions. The hypothesis is that when clicking on a position number 1 result, people are much more likely to be ready to buy. But is this something that our panel concur with?

2. The Google Penguin’s on the way again – but what do webmasters need to look out for?

Gary Illyes says that the next version of Penguin will happen soon, and after that, the plan is for further updates to be delivered in real-time. So if you’re worried about spammy links pointing to your site, is now the time to do something about it?

3. The Wayback machine are building a search engine – what does this mean for marketers?

For years it’s been possible to view old versions of websites at But now with extra investment they’re going to building a search engine, meaning that you’ll be able to search for old versions of web pages using keyword phrases. But what benefit might this have for marketers?

4. Amazon opening physical bookstore in Seattle

Amazon are going to be opening their own physical bookstore in Seattle. What interests me about this is the convergence of the online and offline world. Now this move by Amazon may indicate that we’ll see a very different high street in 10 years time, but what are the main opportunities that marketers need to be looking at now to better integrate online and offline experiences?

5. Goodbye Twitter favourites, hello Twitter hearts

Twitter have replaced its “favourite star” with a “like heart”. They’re possibly influenced by the popularity of hearts on Periscope and wanting to unify user engagement. Or it could be that they hope to appeal to a new generation of Twitter users? What’s with the hearts, and is it significant for marketers?

6. Is LinkedIn an underappreciated gem for SEO?

Jayson DeMers at Search Engine Guide has published an article called “LinkedIn: An Under appreciated Gem for SEO”. But is it a mistake to spend too much time on 3rd party websites that you don’t have full control over; or is LinkedIn really an under-appreciated gem for SEO?


DAVID BAIN: Ranking number one could be more important than you thought. Penguins are coming, what defences should you be putting up? And how can marketers do a better job at integrating online and offline experiences? All that and more in This Week in Organic, Episode Number 24.

Broadcasting live on Blab, you’re watching This Week in Organic, the weekly show that debates the ramifications of the latest SEO and content marketing news. Sign up to watch the next show live at

Hello and welcome, I’m David Bain, and each week I’ll be joined by some knowledgeable, opinionated folks to discuss the latest happenings in anything that impacts organic traffic. And as for you in the live audience, get involved. Click on the tell a little bird button, tell your aunt button to your top left-hand side to share the show with your friends and tell us what you think about what’s being discussed in the comments section to the right-hand side as well and I’ll try and read out as many of your thoughts as I can.

But let’s find out more about today’s guests, where they’re from and what’s caught their attention this week. So starting off with Alex.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Hey, hello everyone, thank you for having me today, I’m really excited about being in nice company. So, basically, my name is Alexandra and my surname is Tachalova, which is really hard to pronounce actually because it’s a Russian surname and I’m from Russia. I have a small agency and I had been working for a pretty long time at SEMrush and right now I’m a digital marketing consultant, so if you have any questions about SEO, digital marketing, social media, whatever you want, you can just buzz me at any time and am I right, David, that I should also cover what topics…?

DAVID BAIN: Just tell us what topic is of particular interest to you.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: I carefully browsed all the topics for today’s discussion and I think I am different. I want to talk about ranking number, so when you are ranking the first position and you gain the most or the least conversions, so I mean like talking about this one case as well as I’d really love to cover some of my personal experiences about LinkedIn, in terms of SEO and definitely Twitter, stars or hearts, because I really love it and I feel like it’s really motivating me to click more. But basically that’s what we are going to talk about a bit later.

DAVID BAIN: You’re passionate about a lot of these topics. It’s going to be tough to get them all in here, isn’t it? Another man joining us today is Lukasz.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Hi, thank you very much for the invitation, David, it’s always a pleasure to be part of your trio, you know I’m a big fan of this. So, I’m Lukasz Zelezny. I’m working as head of organic acquisition at uSwitch price comparison website. I’m managing a small team of four people, including myself. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Alexandra in the past. David, the first time I see Dave I was reading a lot of articles on David Naylor, so I’m very pleased and in terms of topic, I’ve just done a little homework and I’ve prepared myself as well I could, seven minutes before Blab, to be honest! I have three, the first is Penguin, the second is Wayback Machine, I love Wayback Machine and I have a couple of thoughts and obviously, David, you probably know that I couldn’t resist LinkedIn, like my friend said, Lukasz you love LinkedIn so much, you would copy yourself on LinkedIn. I would be like yeah, that would be brilliant; so these are the three topics. And once again, thank you for the invitation.

DAVID BAIN: Oh, Lukasz, you could talk without any revision at all, I’m sure, no problem at all. And another man that could do that, I’m sure, is Dave as well. Dave, thanks for joining us.

DAVID NAYLOR: Hi, yeah. I guess the first time on the show, first time I’ve done one of these in a long, long time, so I’m David Naylor, I own a little agency in the North of England called Bronco and we work with little people and big people. That’s about it, really. The subject matter, I don’t know, it’s like ranking number one Google, it’s like, I would just like to see more data in it, because you know me, it does my nut in when people give you a little bit of data and not much. So Google Penguin, well that was on my blog, so that’s a bit awkward. Wayback Machine, it’s like, do I really want to search stuff that was like twenty years ago, or eighteen years ago, maybe? Amazon have opened a physical book store, I don’t know, maybe it’s just a gimmick. I suppose, like heart is there, no it’s not, it’s there – it’s so much harder to make a star. So, I don’t know. Maybe, yes, Google star, number one for me, I guess.

DAVID BAIN: It’s props on here, not hearts, isn’t it? I wonder if that’s going to change. Okay, well the first topic is a study published by Wayfair in Search Engine Land says that you can get 160% increase in onsite conversion rates if you get your traffic from position whatever to position number one on the search actually. So the hypothesis was that actually clicking on position number one result, people are more likely to actually be ready to buy, but is that something that our panel concur with? Is there enough data behind it, maybe as Dave alluded to? Shall we come to you first on that one, Dave? What are your initial thoughts on that one?

DAVID NAYLOR: Well that’s the problem with the whole hearts cult, to me it just didn’t feel like there was enough data. I’d like to know when they went from position six to position one, were there any ads showing? Were there any shopping adds showing? Were there any graphics in there from, like, Google Images? There are so many different things that are wrapped round that position one, that you can’t go from six to one and everything just stayed the same, because you don’t know what the stay the same point was to start off with. I do agree to a certain extent that I was always told that there were three types of people in this world: the crazy-arsed rich that’ll just click the first thing that they find and got enough money that they’ll just buy it and won’t check anything else; and then you’ve got the third type of person, the tyre kickers who’ll go through twenty or 30 results to save 10p on a 90p product and then you’ve got the first page clickers that’ll click through a few of them, and then make an educated guess. So I can see a slight uplift of being at number one and you search for something that is a product and you’re not really price concerned about it, so if I searched for, I don’t know, Macallan Gold whisky, and the number one slot was there, click it, it’s like £35.80 a bottle, I’d be like ‘click’ thank you very much, here we go. Number two, might be, I don’t know, £29, but I didn’t really bother with it because it was satisfying my need just to click and go. But 160%, sounds more like link bait than sustainable stats, if that makes sense.

DAVID BAIN: Yes, absolutely. That’s a great title to put on it and, as you said, it would be lovely to actually see the data behind that to see how much there is, perhaps it’s skewed towards brand as well, certainly if brand aren’t ranking number one, then you would quite expect the brand to be quite poor and conversion rates to be poor and you’d expect that to rank number one. There are so many variables in there. Lukasz, you look like you’re pondering, reading to say something now?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, if it’s about whisky, it’s absolutely obvious that you’re not checking who else is there, second, third, you’re just quickly buying this. And I think I agree and there is also this element of, I would say, trust. If I see, very often, someone that’s ranking first, then it may be convincing. However, my friend told me once, and that really shocked me, he said ‘You know what, my first rule about Google is I’m always clicking the second position’ and I said ‘Why?’ ‘Because I know that the first is because all bastards like you guys make them first.’ I said ‘Wow. That’s very interesting.’

DAVID BAIN: Alex, your cat’s not going to join us, is it?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: I think basically just talking about branded keywords, like this one when you are appearing by branded keywords on the first position. It means automatically that you are going to grab all traffic and conversions. But from my point of view, first of all this issue shouldn’t be included like researching branded keywords, because they have the highest charge and the highest conversion. In terms of doing really good research you shouldn’t consider those keywords. But what I am really interested in is how much websites really investigated in order to present that data. I feel they took maybe one or two websites and that’s done and I feel that if you’re going to take one niche or industry it’s going to be a huge array of different CTRs in terms of different keywords and positions. Because in some cases you are going to receive a very high CTR, just because your snippet is optimised enough and it’s good looking and it has a sales pitch, for example and in other cases you can receive zero CTR because your snippet doesn’t look good or it doesn’t have any kind of micro formatting or whatever it needed to have in order to persuade people to believe you and click. So it’s really tricky to say that this one is going to work for the whole industry and it should be an automatically scalable solution for everyone. But I’m certain that in some particular cases it’s going to be like that, but if you are just going to dig deeper and we can find enough cases when it’s going to be an opposite result. So it really depends on what you see on search engine result pages, how it’s organised and I totally agree with Dave that where it’s appearing before your first position images, knowledge graphs, local carousels and everything which Google has started to push in our search engine results so heavily. So it really depends.

DAVID BAIN: So basically, it’s a reasonable hypothesis, but there are so many different industries, there are so many different types of search results, local, mobile, all those kind of things as well, and you just can’t apply something certainly without a lot of data behind what it’s talking about. So if you’re looking at these results and going to try and really push your SEO strategy to actually shift your number two rankings to number one, rather than actually have other focus, that’s the wrong thing to do, just upon this study? We need more data behind it before making, drawing some kind of conclusion, essentially?

DAVID NAYLOR: Yes, I mean the other thing about it as well, is that one of the examples they gave in the article, I think , was like candy machine or something crazy like that, for making candyfloss anyway and Wayfair were position nine or something. But number one was Wikipedia, and if I’m looking to purchase, to me Wiki is just, I’m blind to it. I mean it’s like Punch the Monkey advertisements, they were brilliant to start off with, but you become blind to that kind of thing, so you know what, as a consumer, what a commercial term is and you know what a commercial website is, so I totally agree if your competitor is number one and you can leapfrog them, you are going to steal more conversion that way. But if you’ve got informational sites above you and you’re the only one that’s actually commercially viable in the top five, I’m sure that that would skewer the data as well. So, again, it was just an article that didn’t have enough supporting data for my liking.

DAVID BAIN: Yes, absolutely spot on. Well, moving on to the next topic, which is, it is Gary Iles – isles or Gary ill-e-ss? What’s the pronunciation of his surname? Lukasz do you know?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: You know what, I was with Gary in Iceland when he was presenting at the Reykjavik Internet Marketing Conference and there was a big talk about how to say his surname, but I don’t remember and I really don’t want to mislead you guys.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Okay. I know in French is supposed to be ill-e-ss, but isles is probably how he prefers it. No idea. Okay. Alex?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: I just know a little bit of French, so are you sure that you should pronounce s in the end, because I know that in French you shouldn’t pronounce s in the end, so probably it should be ill-a or something like that.

DAVID BAIN: Ooh, mm, I don’t know. Sometimes you might, but maybe we should move off teaching people French in Russia.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: That’s going to be another conversation.

DAVID BAIN: Absolutely. Well, Gary, says that the next version of Penguin will happen soon and after that the plan is for further updates to be delivered in real time. So, if you’re worried about spam elinks pointing to your site is now the time to do something about it? Lukasz, what do you think about this? Do you think sites need to be proactive about the potential Penguin coming along at the moment?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Absolutely. I just want to give a couple of very, very short tactical approaches – I would say it’s like online marketing hygiene. So imagine this. First thing, no matter how clear and how puristic you are about off-page, about your backlinks and so on, you still need to proactively check every couple of weeks what’s going on with your backlinks. Because if you are blind, and you don’t know what backlinks are pointing, then you proactively cannot even disavow them. I know that this it is very, very rare that some people, it’s like this myth that’s the competitor who put lots of toxic backlinks on my website. It’s not about this, but there are scrapers, there are other things, you should know what’s going on with your backlink profile, it’s an integral part of your website.

And the second thing, that lots of SEO people don’t even consider, imagine a situation, you are in company A which acquired company B and right now we will redirect the whole company B website to company A, on the mother website. The first thing I would do is to go to the backlink profile, export from Majestic, HF Search Metrics, Open Site Explorer and Google webmaster tools, make the huge list of links you need, because there is a huge overlap and then see what anchor texts contain a search volume. Everything that contains, if there is any anchor text that contains a search volume, that’s probably, that can be considered as linking on exact anchor match and I would disavow all these links and then I would do 301 redirection. I would never do 301 redirection, like ‘Oh, we bought this company, it is a very reputable company, let’s redirect this on our mother company’. That’s fine, but first I would want to see the link profile, because when you redirect this link profile will be participating in our link profile. So if there was something bad we may get consequences. So that’s my advice.

DAVID BAIN: It’s interesting the different use of the disavow tool as well, because I was talking to Dixon Jones from Majestic a couple of days ago, and he was saying he doesn’t have a disavow file for Majestic. So that was quite intriguing.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: That’s okay, because when you’re talking about your website, when you’re doing your internal things, that’s fine because you can see what is in the disavow file. The problem is when you’re doing research on your competitor and you’re thinking like oh, so many bad backlinks, but they technically may have disavowed them a long, long time ago, but we don’t know about this.

DAVID BAIN: So, Dave, is there anything else that website owners need to be doing to prepare themselves for Penguin potentially?

DAVE NAYLOR: It’s a tough one, isn’t it? And we’ve made tools and executive decisions internally here on how we handle inbound links for our clients. We do a lot of PR work these days and therefore we’ll secure things in mainstream media more often than not and that will lead to bloggers and scrapers and new syndicators collecting this data, rewriting it, linking to it or not linking to it, no follow-up links. So we get a real look of what a normal website that’s not been SEO’d, let us say, okay, I don’t want to say that every website that I touch becomes an SEO’d website, because I’m an SEO, so therefore it has to, there’s no way that I don’t look at something and go ‘Oh, I should change that and I should tweak that’ but I find the more PR stuff that we do, the more weird stuff that I see turning up. I’m kind of surprised that Dixon doesn’t have a disavow file, maybe he’s just bloody lazy and he’s a good friend of mine anyway, so I will speak to him on Skype after this and find out why he hasn’t, or maybe he’s just lied and maybe it’s his big secret. Maybe he just doesn’t promote his website from an SEO point of view, so therefore he’s not worried. What keywords would he be actually tracking, if any? It’s like, to me, if I was in Dixon’s shoes, I wouldn’t need to do SEO and I wouldn’t need to do disavow files because I don’t rely on Google, and I think that’s the thing. If you’re non-reliant on Google for your traffic, then why bother jumping through all the SEO hoops than Google make us jump through.

I think what Gary’s done this time around is, he’s trying to make us all work again. He’s trying to make us jump on the bandwagon, clean up the backlinks, give Google more data on what we think is bad and what we think is good. So, yeah, if you’ve got someone giving negative SEO then sure, clean that stuff up. If you’ve been buying links over the last four to two years, in that period, you might want to look at those and clean those out from the disavow file, or just remove them. It’s like nine times out of ten if you’re disavowing stuff it’s because another SEO agency has already serviced the client and injected that stuff in there or purchased that stuff, or you’ve had a total change of direction and you want to clear out areas of your website. I do feel a lot of this stuff that they’re saying the backlink stuff now, is very much along the lines of we need more data, we want input from webmasters on what they feel is bad, so we can feed this into our AI systems, so that the AI systems can learn better as well. You know that if you’re going to put in a disavowed file for a client, there is most probably links on there that you’ve acquired in the past that you’ve now had a change of heart over. There’s links in there that you’ve placed as an SEO that you think ‘Ooh, if Matt Cutts or Gary or John Moo looked at that, they most probably wouldn’t like them, I’d better get rid of those out of the equation as well.’ But giving that data over to Google means that they can run the AI through that and go, ‘Actually, there’s patterns here that we can actually use to catch PBNs and stuff like that.’ So from a webmaster’s point of view if you’re not hit and you can sleep at night, then leave it, sleep.

DAVID BAIN: Alex, do you have many clients that are particularly focused on the potential of our Penguin update coming soon, like Dave suggested, or are the majority of people just simply focused on doing ongoing good practice and not being too concerned about these updates as they come along?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Well, I think there is just a couple of my considerations about that, because I feel that if you have all those backlinks and you have right now let’s say a last chance announcement from Google to do it, so we are going to do it and you are going to disavow right now everything which you weren’t really touching all the previous times, which is going to give a signal to Google that you are really trying to hide something and right now you are that pointing that out. So that’s one of my considerations. So I think you shouldn’t do it in a really proactive way, if you have something bad in your profile, just try to somehow minimalise the activity in terms of not showing it to Google in such a direct way. From another point of view, I don’t have a lot of clients who have those problems, let’s say, or they have a couple of clients which are following wrong link building strategies, like, for example, putting their links in the variables box in the comments sections with not, let’s say, a super useful content and I think it’s about mindset and about doing that and I had a couple of conversations with those clients like ‘Stop doing that guys’; it’s just ridiculous from my point of view. But they keep following these kinds of patterns and I think it’s about mindsets as well. So it’s not only about Google and whatever and blah, blah, blah, it’s also about how people do it. For example, they found out some old block ports about 100 best link building strategies to follow them, not looking at the dates or just some kind of bad bloggers putting all that stuff on the internet and they are starting to follow them.

DAVID BAIN: It reminds me of people looking for blogs with ‘Do follow’ comments, that was from eight years ago, plus, something like that. It is not something that you would want to do now.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: so what I recommend from my point of view for sure controlling your backlinks, so for example it’s like, so here are just two reasons why you should control them. The first one is just being aware of what is going on in your landscape and the second one that those people you can not only receive bad links but good links and that’s a reason to communicate with people and thank them about mentioning you. So I control all my clients’ backlinks and I receive a daily alert about them, or basically I use a couple of tools like for content alerts I use Buzz Sumo, for backlinks, alerts of new backlinks and also load backlinks as well, I use Ahrefs and I highly recommend them, they are really good. And also, from time to time, I use Kerboo, which is really good because I can put there any API key from Ahrefs, Majestic or Moz and I can analyse automatically backlinks I find and it’s pointing out to me the dangerous links, which is also good, but still your brain is the best one here, so you need to export all that data and also take a look at this manually as well. So basically a couple of pieces of advice from me, because I don’t really work a lot with penalties.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, yes, that’s great. Be proactive about things. Let’s move on to our next topic, which is one of Lukasz’s favourites as well. And that’s for years it has been possible to view old versions of websites at, but now with extra investment, there are now going to be building a search engine, meaning that you will be able to search for old versions of web pages using keyword phrases. But what benefits might this have for marketers? Are you looking forward to this Lukasz, if it happens?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes, absolutely. You know for me Web Archive was kind of a source of lots of useful information. There was even a case, a court case in Poland, back in the day, about some contract that had not been properly handled and that was between one of the TV stations and some external agency and the TV station was saying ‘No, no, no, we never had any business together’ and they went to Web Archive and they found the day when they posted ‘We are right now in a business relationship with these guys’ and they were trying to say that it was made up, but there is no way you can make up Web Archive. So it’s very useful. It’s kind of a very, very geeky tool, somehow. It’s not for everybody, but how I see web archive as a search engine I see this two dimensional search, so you have one dimension, the Google like search, so type a phrase and see, but the second dimension, the two dimensional aspect, is that you can also ask when the document was live, which one you’re looking for. So, it’s something similar to Google Maps, like Google Street view allows you to travel across London and in London Victoria and you can ask it to show you what it looked like in 2007, and now in 2010 and then sometimes, because of the nostalgia, I like to see how London Victoria was changing. Nostalgia is just one reason why we would need this kind of search engine. For SEOs, there was lots of, I was playing this kind of game of re-cultivation, recycling of the website. So let’s say you picked up a dropped domain and you were going back to the Web Archive and you were taking the content, you were rebuilding your site from scratch. I was literally like a virtual bin man. I was just taking things from the bin and I was like, ‘Oh, it’s still working, let’s put this back.’ I could recycle a website and what happened then, you could see that because these backlinks were still pointing to the specific pages, then not only the home page was getting page rank very soon, but also the deeper pages were getting page rank soon. So you could theoretically build a nice website with very little effort. I don’t think that this is the main purpose that they are building the search engine.

DAVID BAIN: That’s happened to me actually. I’ve had a website that I’ve had in the past and couldn’t be bothered with, let the domain name drop and someone else has actually taken it and just taken the content and republished it. I’m going ‘Hey, come on! Be a bit original here!’

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Exactly and you would find him and he would be like ‘Well, you just threw this away, I just picked this up from the bin.’ Because technically, it is like that. Web archive is kind of like things that expired very often and so on. Overall, as a summary, I’m very, very excited about this web archive search engine. Especially that we will be looking in two dimensions. The date and the keyword we are looking for, like in Google. So I’m looking forward to this.

DAVID BAIN: Dave, one thing that Lukasz said was that it’s quite a geeky tool. Can you see a stage in the future where marketers would actually be using it positively to actually research what’s happened in the past? Maybe see what’s happened and perhaps even customers as well. Customers who are considering buying from a company wanting to see how long a company has been around and using that tool to actually search historically for how long that website has been around.

DAVID NAYLOR: It’s a tough one, isn’t it, because it’s like the world that we live in, we are looking forward to things like robots doing our jobs and self-drive cars picking me up and taking me to a pizza place and a robot serves me pizza. So going back in time seems a bit weird. Two of the things that I can see it being useful for is browser plug-ins where you click on a link and it’s going to go to a 404 page and archive intercept it and bring up a choice of pages that were previously there. If it is going to be a search engine, it’s going to be indexing content quickly and efficiently as well and then I can see that being beneficial for grabbing data quickly. There’s loads of scripts out there at the moment that’ll rip out Archive’s heart and just dump out sites and clone them within seconds, I can’t see any benefit, from an SEOs point of view, from having a search facility there, other than the fact that something went really badly wrong with the client six months ago and you just signed them, you’d be able to roll back what was actually on page six months previously, so you can most probably see some of the things that they were doing. But you can do that now anyway. So I think whoever has invested £1.9 million into it, it seems like a chunk of change to index something that is no longer on the web, if that makes sense. It just seems a bit weird. I mean I like Archive, there’s no two ways about it, I do use it for, if we’re looking at websites that have been updated ages ago and you can’t quite remember what was on page and you’ve got a load of footer links that are no longer there, you thing ‘Ah ha, that was most probably the first trigger of whatever happened to them’ but realistically it’s £1.9 million wasted in my opinion. I’m really sorry.

DAVID BAIN: Okay. There’s some interesting comments coming in on the chat actually. ‘Wayback Machine is awesome for broken link building’ and then a suggestion about how to do it here. I’m just trying to get my head around that and talk at the same time, although it’s a bit challenging to do. Maybe you could have a look at that and see what you think of that one, possibly, and there’s some suggestion of tools to clone a whole site. I’m a bit more uncomfortable with that one, possibly. Ideas are common practice. Alex, have you used Wayback Machine, What are your thoughts on that?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Actually, the very first time when I used it, I was really curious as to how SEMrush had looked when it was first launched. It was really, really funny stuff. It was super funny, then I browsed a couple of other websites like Moz, out of curiosity, but now when I think about launching those comprehensive search engines I think it can be really interesting from the point of generating data driven content. For example, I am really into this topic right now, because I do a lot of research and I am going to launch the research about the current state of digital marketing agencies in the UK, US and European markets and I’m now just putting our content and infographics together and I hope it’s going to be a really huge piece. But I thought about a really interesting case which you can do with those websites as well. If it’s going to let you search inside it so you can select any topic by which you can search and I found out that France, which was popular at that time, and you can confer with the current trends, or you can take a different dataset and compare the progress of, I don’t know, improving or it has been steady, whatever you want. So it’s really interesting, and I was just thinking about it and, for example, I remembered that at the end of last year and at the beginning of this year, it was really popular to change all buttons to flat, so using Web Archive, you can also find out the trend of when it started to be really popular, when Apple started to use it and other websites started to use change it as well. And you can find some kind of traction here and with the current data you can do really interesting research about that. So it really depends on what you are searching for and how you use this data, but it’s going to be really interesting in terms of content marketing and launching new research.

DAVID BAIN: Okay. Well coming up we’re going to be talking about the fact that Amazon are opening an physical bookstore in Seattle and whether marketers are going to love Twitter hearts. We’re also going to be asking the question ‘Is LinkedIn an under-appreciated gem for SEO’. It’s also nice to see quite a bit of chat starting to go now in the side bar there, so keep that coming along. We’ve got Urock@UK saying it’s also great for finding contact details for a website for outreach purposes. Where they were in the past, but later removed. There’s a few different uses for, but I guess the advice is not to get lost in it and think that’s the most significant thing you should be focusing on. But moving on to the next topic, which is Amazon are going to be opening their own physical bookstore in Seattle. So what interested me about this is the convergence of the offline and online world. Now, this move by Amazon may indicate that we’ll see a very different high street perhaps, in ten years’ time, but what are the main opportunities that marketers need to be looking at now to be better at integrating online and offline experiences? Lukasz, what are your thoughts on this one?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, you know, I’m not very much in the offline world, I’m much more in the online world.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, Alex?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: No, so my advice is only that I think that there is still a huge potential niche of these romantic people who are still trying to be more offline and vintage and old school and it’s a potentially huge target group which is on the margin right now, because the world is spinning and everything is faster and faster. Some of my friends are like ‘How can you buy things on a mobile, I need to have a desktop’ so they are still not getting there as quick as things are going. For me, it’s obvious, like, I have a thought in my mind, I’m in my bed, my mobile is next to me, I’m just buying something and the next day it’s in my office. But offline store, I think it’s a nice experiment, I don’t know how successful they will be with opening more bookstores in London, because we have huge competition here. We have the Penguin publisher, we have lots of other bookstores and so on. From the marketing point, again, I’m too much online to think about offline. I think this is a totally different story. But I’m very happy to observe this and to see where it will go.

DAVID BAIN: One comment saying Amazon has destroyed the high street, now rents are cheap they can open up stores and fly their drones for local distribution. I’m starting to feel bad about signing up for Prime now. I signed up for Prime and I’m quite liking it. Maybe I shouldn’t be supporting the machine. Dave, what are your thoughts on this one?

DAVID NAYLOR: Well it’s kind of weird that all this happened just after Waterstones pulled Kindle out of 230 stores, so I don’t know if it’s more of a political gesture than anything else, or just a big advertisement banner. I don’t think they want to sell more hard copies, I think they want to sell Kindles, they want to sell Prime. The smart move would have been to join forces with Starbucks in some way and sell coffee and books at the same time. Or give away hard copy books with every Kindle copy you download. I don’t know, it’s either gimmicky, I can’t see it sticking around for a long, long time. Now, I’ve said things like that before and it’s really come back and bitten me in the arse, so a proviso on that would be if they started up in all major cities where you could actually click and collect, so it became almost like an Argos in the UK type scenario where you have a big warehouse with distribution points, you can click, walk into your Amazon store, pick up your parcel from there before the self-drive cars get into force and we don’t have to walk anywhere again. But bookstores? I don’t know, I can’t see it, I just can’t see how it’s got any legs.

DAVID BAIN: It is tough to break things, but maybe ten years ago, we couldn’t have thought about so many Apple stores being everywhere and they certainly appear to be doing very well and talking about breaking things, and you’re talking to, maybe, Dixon in the next few days, I remember interviewing Dixon back in 2007 and he was saying something like ‘This Twitter’ll never come to anything at all’. It’s tough, it’s tough.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I like this comment ‘It’s a linkbait from Amazon’ I like this.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, yeah. Is that your thought as well? Alex, what are your thoughts on this one?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: I don’t really know what is going on with Amazon and how they are going to proceed further, which is really interesting. I was quite surprised, actually you told me and I was like ‘Oh, really!’ because I think I am more into SEO world and checking all those blog posts and less news about Amazon, but I really love how they have all those things inside their company, I mean in terms of managing need and how they organise their internal processes, because it’s really interesting and I remember, some time ago I read a really interesting book about that, how they have all those processes inside their company, which is really challenging and how they deal with people, it was interesting. But from my point of view, it can be just a part of branding, for example. So they need to have some human face of their brand and I think it’s like maybe just a step to make it more emotional and so to create an emotional attachment between me and Amazon, because I can come to a real place, see real people and that can be just a state for communication and they can run their offline event, their whatever. So it maybe just a way of doing their branding. So basically it’s like, for sure we have a lot of online, but still we have a lot of offline. And maybe we need sometimes some kind of feeling that it’s real.

DAVID BAIN: Yeah, I mean it’s intriguing. It could be just one store, it could be hundreds of stores within the next few years. Watch this space, I reckon. I think the whole area of integrating online/offline and integrating different types of marketing, is going to become quite important and interesting over the next few years, because in the past and perhaps now quite a bit, people are sitting in silos and it would be nicer to have whole picture thinking in terms of how what you do impacts on other areas of the business. Or maybe I’m dreaming about that as well, I’m not sure. We’ll see how it evolves. But next topic, which is just online, which is Twitter have replaced its favourite star with a like heart. They are possibly influenced by the popularity of hearts in Periscope and wanting to unify user engagement, or could it be that they hope to appeal to a new generation of Twitter users? So what’s with the hearts and is it significant for marketers? Lukasz, you’re a Periscope man you like pressing the hearts.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, yes. Part of me is very confused because I feel a little, I feel like it’s a bit crazy because Twitter changed the shape of the icon and the whole world is talking about this. I saw this news thirteen minutes ago. Wow, Twitter changed their icon to like, the new era has come! The world is totally different. Nothing is ever the same. From the other side…

DAVID BAIN: I think I’ll use that quote from you, I’m going to take that and create a…

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: From the other side, it is like well, I feel like I agree. The world ‘like’ is super attached to the social media environment. The shape of the icon maybe has a stronger emotional value and remember that we’re talking about, the emotional difference is very tiny, we’re multiplying this by a million, billion people, so in fact I would say it can be a nice AB test, the biggest, the greatest AB test ever, because the sample data, the sample group, is huge, only Facebook have ever had such a big group to test something on. I would be very, very happy to see some data behind this – ‘Since we’ve had heart, we can see that people are more likely clicking this than they were clicking by average the favourite.’ So, it’s fascinating, but from the normal user, normal Twitter user, I would say that there is not much change. I wouldn’t be super optimistic because it’s just an icon, just a little change that a free newspaper was writing about.

DAVID BAIN: Okay, Andy Halliday saying in the chat that it’s great for getting free advertising for Twitter and trying to get some new users. Dave, is this just a PR stunt? Or could Twitter seriously expect to actually increase the number of users from this?

DAVID BAIN: I mean I want to know what happened to all my favourites, because my favourites were things that I was going to read later and stuff like this and now they’re just flipping to likes, I don’t like half of the stuff that I favourite. I favourited it because I actually want to go back and read it. It should be, change that from a heart to a little picture of a book, for read later. I mean it’s bullshit at the end of the day, why change something from one thing that is totally different to something else. It’s like changing the like button on Facebook to ‘I’m not too sure about this person anymore’ and porting all the data over. ‘I used to like them, now I’m not too sure’ button has kicked in. It’s like I didn’t ‘like’ this stuff, I added it to my favourites list, it’s crap. If the changed the theme from ‘followers’ to ‘stalkers’, I’ve got 27,400 stalkers, what the hell’s going on. You’re stalking people, oh I’d better get rid of a few those. So I’m sure that from what they are doing, I’m sure that people will engage more with hearts than they will with little stars. Me, personally, I was a star guy. I’m not into hearts and flowers and stuff like that.

DAVID BAIN: Grant Whiteside from Ambergreen hates the word ‘followers’ actually, so he would be quite happy if it changes to something else, I’m sure.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Stalkers, I like this.

DAVID NAYLOR: Stalkers, yeah. That’s how it works.

DAVID BAIN: I was going to say Alex, have you got any stalkers, no I won’t…followers on Twitter?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Yeah, there is lots of random views just liking right now, which is really interesting, but what I want to say here is that actually in Russia we have a pretty popular social media, it’s called Vkontakte, it’s similar to Facebook and we have, from the very beginning, those hearts there and when I open Twitter and I saw there are those hearts, just like on, only Vkontakte is going to, when you click on it’s turning out to be blue and in Twitter it’s a red one. So I mean it’s not like truly red, it’s a mixture of colours. And I was like ‘Oh my gosh!’ it’s like in Vkontakte. I don’t know who just decided to take the idea from Vkontakte and do it on Twitter, but from my point of view, it was like someone had just taken ideas from one social media and bring it to another one. But I think it’s a really interesting idea. I was like as well as ‘Oh gosh’ I am super interested to see the insides of changes. I mean like how much in reality the engagement has changed since they’ve started to introduce those new hearts instead of stars and whether it’s really some changes especially some industries like, for example, dating or something which is like a really emotional one. So how has it really changed? Because I think on, for example, dating websites, it should go up, because people are just liking like hell, all those girls, boys whatever. Which is really interesting, so some industries should receive a really good up and some just can be down because in B2B when you see some brand which is like a technology brand, do you really want to like it? And put in a heart? I don’t know. It’s tricky, it’s actually tricky.

DAVID BAIN: It seems to be too simplistic an emotion to try and actually offer to just as a single emotion to actually offer for each tweet certainly as well. In the chat we’ve got, in relation to the word followers, we’ve got on Everon UK suggesting subscribers and Urock@UK suggesting other marketers would be more accurate. Lukasz, have you met anyone on Twitter that aren’t marketers?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, you can ask me, I have mainly very, very narrow topical focus on Twitter right now, but I need to say something regarding what David same, David you probably are in a really small minority of people who are favouriting and then thinking to get back to Twitter later. I was always using the favourite button as an endorsement. I like this girl, let’s favourite the last five tweets.

DAVID NAYLOR: So the heart really works for you now?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yeah, absolutely. I see Alexandra was probably doing the same. Nice guy, favourite.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Yeah, yeah, I mean if you go to my latest Twitter, 90% of guys who are following me because it’s just an industry and if you are really narrow focused like me, it’s like that, so I have on my Facebook, Twitter that’s it.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: If I like someone very much, I’m even re-tweeting.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Oh yes. It’s like a special endorsement.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: But you know, for people who are really looking for lots of followers, that’s one of the strategies. There are types of software which can favourite a couple of hundred tweets, because it’s the same in LinkedIn, we’ll be talking about LinkedIn, but when you see that, when users see that, the number of people favourite number of tweets, there is a very high chance that at least a couple of them will follow back. I think, David, you’re really using this properly, but there is only probably you and a couple of other guys left who are using this as it was designed to be used.

DAVID NAYLOR: Well, I’m just looking at my, at the moment, my tweets following followers and likes, and I’m looking at it and some of the stuff on here, apparently I’m just hearting guys all the time now. It makes me feel a bit uncomfortable and I’m like de-heart these guys. And if they see that they’ll think ‘Why doesn’t Dave love me anymore?’ and I’m like it wasn’t supposed to be like this. A little star, there was no sexuality about it and now I’m kind of like, I’m going to leave the one for the Ale Trail, because that’s beer and I love beer, so I’m fine with that one. But Carlos Fernandez, Max, Alex Moss, I don’t love them, that’s for sure. I want to undo that one straight away. Danny Sullivan, he can still have my heart, he’s okay.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: It’s like Twitter, you should have it like dislike also.


DAVID BAIN: I’m feeling the heart is ‘I acknowledge that you’ve said something, but I don’t like it enough to re-tweet something.’

DAVID NAYLOR: It’s kind of like, it’s made my screen full of little red things and I’m just not happy about that. It just looks like blood all over my screen. Like if someone squished a spider or something.

DAVID BAIN: I think we should have just had this one topic for the whole show, actually. We could have…

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: But think about this, in Blab you have these hands, how much impact would you have if you had hearts?

DAVID NAYLOR: Or stars? Go on, do a star.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: If you take a heart and integrate it with star, that’s what it’s going to be.

DAVID BAIN: So, we have one more topic. And that’s Jayson DeMers at Search Engine Guide has published an article called ‘LinkedIn: An Underappreciated Gem for SEO’ but is it a mistake to spend too much time on third party websites? That you don’t have full control over? Or is LinkedIn really an underappreciated gem for SEO? Lukasz, you had a deep breath there.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Well, because you always think this when we are talking about LinkedIn.

DAVID BAIN: When I’m talking with you, it…

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: You’re putting this worry on my head like ‘Don’t you worry to put all your content, your writing on LinkedIn, it’s technically not your platform.’ And I always remember this. Like if one day your LinkedIn will be closed, you will be the first person I will call and I will be like ‘You was right.’ Well, you know that I love LinkedIn. LinkedIn and Twitter is like mummy and daddy. We are like friends, we are like family. We’re working together and they are my mobile and LinkedIn is my, I wouldn’t say that it is extremely important for SEO, because it’s a little like obviously you can make your profile ranking, yeah, and you have a couple of examples like you can write some keywords and can see that people are ranking there, but I think I wouldn’t say that using LinkedIn because of SEO is the right way to use this. I think LinkedIn is such a powerful tool and this built-in LinkedIn tools platform to blog and meeting all these professional people, and finally the very small number of fake accounts you have on LinkedIn. That speaks for itself and that is a great advertisement for this medium. I don’t use LinkedIn as any kind of special tactic for SEO, and I probably will not be. I think, once again, LinkedIn is so powerful as a tool, that I’m happy to use this as something additional.

DAVID BAIN: Alex, you’re a big fan of encouraging people to build their personal authority as a form of actually driving business toward whatever they do and then real relationships and all that kind of thing. Is building your LinkedIn profile a great part of that? Is that an important part of what you teach?

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Well, I think basically to connect people, yes. But I don’t use LinkedIn a lot like Lukasz, for example, and I think I am pretty miserable in that, I should do it. I’m just spending my resources on doing some other stuff, which is maybe not so effective, but each time I’m just checking my to do list I’m like oh, I should do a LinkedIn post as well. But I was like okay, next time. So basically, I think this is like a really interesting case in terms of SEO because some time ago I was considering new sources of getting traffic to your website, in terms of, it’s a third party, but still it’s really interesting. For example, I checked SEMrush for their, it’s like for pages, so they’ve recently launched a new report with pages, and I just checked LinkedIn and the most visible pages in terms of traffic and I found out a lot of different LinkedIn pages. I mean like company pages that are ranking outstanding by 300 keywords and more and that’s like, for example, it’s like a bit one is Wells Fargo, like I see right now, but there are also some small companies as well, which is really interesting and what I totally agree with that it’s in terms of keywords it works and if you are like interested in being more visible, especially by your branded keywords which is quite logical, you should use LinkedIn as the additional source of being visible. So I think it’s a combination of factors like an authority and it’s a social acceptance that you should be on LinkedIn and your company should be there, or at least your employees should be there. So I think it’s good in terms of social approval to have a LinkedIn page so people who work in your company should be able to attach to your page, but from the other side it’s really interesting that from an SEO site, it also works. So that’s my point of view here.

DAVID BAIN: Dave, from an SEO perspective, is the most important use of LinkedIn reputation management?

DAVID NAYLOR: No, it’s finding staff.

DAVID BAIN: Okay. That’s interesting.

DAVID NAYLOR: I mean our newest starter, who starts on Monday, basically fired over a LinkedIn message to me with his CV. I employed him. I mean Lukasz said that it was like, I don’t know if LinkedIn is the mummy or the daddy in his world, but to me it’s more like that annoying uncle that turns up at weddings, gets drunk and dances with the three year old children until he’s physically sick on one of them and has to be escorted home. The only time I ever visit LinkedIn is when something comes in to my email that says ‘Someone’s looked at your LinkedIn profile’ and it’s like okay, it’s someone that is basically trying to steal my staff or try to recruit me, so it’s great as a recruitment engine, but I’m a hater of anyone that says social and SEO somehow so close together that they have to be to be right and Rand Fishkin and I have major, major arguments over this, that correlation about being number one in Google will get you more Facebook likes or more Facebook likes will get you number one in Google. It’s like, number one in Google gets you more traffic if you’re a social type website, you get more people to it, more people like Facebook and it’s a circle, and that’s the way it works. Reputation management? I don’t see that many LinkedIn pages ranking in the UK. I don’t know, let me just, let me think of a company in the UK, Currys, I think they’re still a company in the UK at the moment. So if I search for Currys at the moment, Wikipedia, maybe Currys is not much of a…

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Skyscanner as well. I see.

DAVID NAYLOR: Yeah, but I’m not seeing LinkedIn in there. If I search for my company, Bronco Limited, I get, oh, I lie, I get Bronco there is the number two position right below our company name and then places I have spoken at.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: And when you type your name and surname, as long as you are not John Smith, then probably…

DAVID NAYLOR: I’ll try David Naylor.


DAVID NAYLOR: Top 25 David Naylor profiles, there’s a few of us out there. Let’s see if I’m in that list, because if I’m not I’m going to be really annoyed now, aren’t I? Oh, I’m number one, boom, it’s probably because I’m already logged in, so it’s just showing me me. I don’t know. If I was going to go and look for a person, I would just go to LinkedIn and I suppose that that’s the creature of habit that I am becoming now, as well. If I want to buy something and I want it here tomorrow, I don’t even bother searching on Google, I just go to Amazon and search for it, because I know that nine times out of ten, they will fulfil my desire for whatever it is that I’m looking for. So it’s interesting the fact that I have searched for three things and LinkedIn was in there, so kudos to the LinkedIn team. They seem to be spanning it.

DAVID BAIN: You obviously haven’t tried to optimise the page that much then?

DAVID NAYLOR: No. So from an SEO’s point of view, I’ve done my job because I’m ranking there number two for my grand. £1,000 extra a month just to keep LinkedIn traffic there.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: You should hire Lukasz right now.

DAVID NAYLOR: Why? I’m there, number two. I know nothing about this and I’m already there. Anyone selling this, that’s a joke, I’ve done nothing and my LinkedIn profile is already there for name and for my…

DAVID BAIN: Lukasz will get your company page ranking number one and your website number two though.

DAVID NAYLOR: I don’t want that, that doesn’t help my wife.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: But you see, talking totally seriously, when someone wants to contact me on the conference or something, I prefer to give him my LinkedIn, not my email. Because I am checking LinkedIn every couple of hours, and when I see the message there, a message is there, I know that this is probably something personal, I have no confirmation, newsletters, subscriptions, all that stuff which is cluttering my email account.

DAVID BAIN: But that’s just your personal preference. I mean some people use Twitter like that. Some people have their personal messages in Twitter and don’t follow that many people and really like doing that.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes, yes, absolutely. And I sometimes have people who send me messages on Twitter and I’m actually not as good with direct messages on Twitter, I sometimes may omit this, but LinkedIn, never.

DAVID NAYLOR: So, I’ve just gone to LinkedIn, just signed in now, and the little red box is in the far corner, I’ve got 322 messages, little red boxes, four notifications, because I think I messed about with that earlier on today and 343 invitations. Am I doing a good job?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes. Approve them all.


DAVID NAYLOR: At this moment, yeah, back in a minute.

DAVID BAIN: Lukasz, how many connections to you have on LinkedIn now?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: I think about 10,000 right now.

DAVID NAYLOR: How do I find that?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: It’s not that easy to, thinking like that, I know how to do this on an iPad, when you open the front panel of LinkedIn, then on an iPad you can see.

DAVID BAIN: And there’s a difference between connections and followers as well?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes. Because you asked me once why my number of followers is different to the number of connections, because that means that probably there is some criteria I’m using not to accept and there is one, I forgot to tell you last time. If someone doesn’t have a profile photo, especially people who’ve got the look of the company, like John Smith and the look of the company. I’m like what are you afraid of? The same people on Facebook sometimes, they have fake surnames, like Alexandra Alexandra, if Alexandra would be trying to cover, what’s the point, you have an account on Facebook and you are into this paranoia – ‘Oh I cannot give my surname’ so these people, I will wait until they change their profile and then I will approve. But every day I get ten, twenty invitations.

DAVID NAYLOR: I’ve got 500+ connections, that’s all it says and I’ve got 343 waiting.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: So together it’s 500.

DAVID BAIN: Well 500+. When was the last time you approved, Dave?

DAVID NAYLOR: I’m going to approve someone now, whose going to be the lucky winner. It’s not going to be her or her…

DAVID BAIN: You’re doing it by photos, okay you’ve said her twice.

DAVID NAYLOR: There you go, Mark Russell. Congratulations. Oh, Mike Stewart, he can be as well, where is he from? Status 26, Dallas, Fort Worth, search engine marketer, I don’t know why he wants to connect with me. He’s most probably going to spam the bits out of me now.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: It’s not like that. They want to be closer to you.

DAVID BAIN: But sometimes…

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Dave, Dave is my friend on LinkedIn.

DAVID NAYLOR: What they don’t want then, they don’t want a connect button, they want little heart button. I’d be clicking that like crazy wouldn’t I?

DAVID BAIN: But would you do that to men, just as much as women, Dave?

DAVID NAYLOR: Hey, free market, mate!

DAVID BAIN: I reckon we’re passing the hour mark, I reckon that just about takes us towards the end of this week’s show, so time for maybe a single take away from each of our guests and some sharing, we’ll find out more details from them. So, shall we start off with Lukasz?

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Yes, but what is the question?

DAVID BAIN: From our discussion today, what would be the one take away that you think people should think about and maybe implement in whatever they’re doing in their business and then leave us with your contact details.

LUKASZ ZELEZNY: Okay, because the main topic is always about SEO, I will say be proactive with you backlink profile. Make sure that you have at least one tool, it can be one of the Google webmaster tools and periodically, every couple of weeks, you do a little review of what is out there, even if you have never been doing link building and you are pretty sure that everything should be fine. It’s good to have an eye on this so you have knowledge of what is going on and then you’re sleeping well when the Penguin update is coming. And my contact details, obviously LinkedIn Lukasz Zelezny and Twitter Lukasz Zelezny. If you really want Facebook, Lukasz Zelezny, photos of cats and food, mainly, nothing interesting. So, let’s catch up online.

DAVID BAIN: Wonderful. And Alex, as well, thanks for joining us.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: So actually I think that there was a lot of things you were covering today and basically I think it’s really good to stay alert as Lukasz mentioned and what I can also say from my point of view, it’s also good to take any kind of good considerations when you see any kind of research like we discussed today, that you need to consider the environment the data says and whether it has really driven any kind of insights to you and you should blindly believe it. So it’s a lot about collating data and I can just take one number and show it in so many different ways, I can show like it’s growing, it’s going down, so just in terms of giving it context and it’s about how you interpret this data. So I highly recommend you each time to give a good consideration to use your brain and also use brain in analysing backlinks and don’t blindly believe the tools as well. Good luck.

DAVID BAIN: Use your common sense as well.

ALEXANDRA TACHALOVA: Definitely, and you can follow me wherever you want, so it can also Facebook, yes I also have a cat, so basically you can enjoy my cat and I have LinkedIn Alexandra Tachalova, Twitter as well. So you are very welcome, whatever you prefer.

DAVID BAIN: Thanks, Alex and also joining us was Dave. Dave, thank you.

DAVID NAYLOR: Yeah. I guess my one topic on all of this I guess was the ranking number one, could it be more important, I would say that from that point of view, if you’re going to write about SEO and you’re going to push information out there, for the love of other SEOs, do it properly, give us the right data. The amount of people that are out there that are feeding information. Someone will have read that this week and will have gone to their boss, or their boss has read it and said ‘We will get 160% increase in conversions if we’re number one. You have to be number one now.’ Then pressure on the SEO is immense. Someone will get sacked because they didn’t do it, so seriously follow up with proper data, just don’t throw crap out there, it’s so annoying. That’s why I got off Twitter and LinkedIn, I’m still on Facebook, but if anybody does really want to follow me on there, there’s a lot of rugby stuff on there as well. Just rubbish and crap, I don’t know why anyone would follow me anywhere. And on that note, I’m David Naylor and my company is Bronco.

DAVID BAIN: That was a negative qualifier, wasn’t it, Dave?

DAVID NAYLOR: Yeah, but feel free, I mean I’ve got something like 20,000 Twitter followers, I must have said something hilarious or very intelligent once in my life! 27,000. That time will come again, and I will say something very clever and witty one day soon and therefore those people will be satisfied.

DAVID BAIN: He said lots of clever, wonderful things today. I appreciate you joining us. Thank you.


DAVID BAIN: And I’m David Bain, head of growth at Analytics SEO, the agency and enterprise SEO platform with big insights. Sign up for a free demo of our platform at and you can also find me interviewing online marketing gurus over Now, if you’re watching the show as a recording, remember to watch the next episode live, so head over to and be part of the live audience for the next show. But for those of you watching live, we also have an audio podcast of previous shows, so again sign up for the email updates at and you’ll receive the podcast links from there too. But until we see you again, have a fantabulous weekend and thank you all for joining us. Cheers everyone, thanks Lukasz, thanks Alex and thanks Dave.

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